1. Warming up with three good things
2. Offering you the film version of the Clearing scene with Baby Suggs
a. Close reading: What specific elements in this scene interest you?
b. Zooming out a little: What are the qualities and purposes of this space? Why does Morrison name it "the Clearing"? Who used to govern this space? Who governs it now? What does this shift mean?
c. Considering broader themes: In the larger sense of the novel so far, what purposes might this scene serve? What do you think Morrison wants us to understand better or differently (about slavery? memory? pain? freedom? ownership?)?
3. Discussing Chapters 9-12 in Beloved in a silent Socratic
4. Wrapping up with each group's best questions, epiphanies, and kudos
HW:
1. For TOMORROW: Decide which poem you'd like to explore for your paper or project, and bring your laptop if you wish to type your metacognitive.
2. For WEDNESDAY: Read Chapters 13, 14, and 15 in Beloved (no ticket required)
3. For FRIDAY: Read Chapters 16, 17, and 18 and prepare a Socratic ticket (I accidentally left these off the bookmark!).
I think the purpose of "the Clearing" is to stress the importance of community. It is described that Baby Suggs would basically bring everyone together in this one place where they were free to dance and sing and be themselves. As slaves or just black people at this time, that wasn't always allowed. The Clearing was a place to be rid of social prejudices and brutality. But, since Sethe arrived, the Clearing lost all it's power over people and no one feels that same sense of community and togetherness.
ReplyDeleteA lot of people are saying it's a place to not have the stress of the world around you and to be freed. I like your thoughts here because of the way the people interact in the clearing. Instead of emptying themselves of worry, they fill themselves with the joy of being with each other and of the world around them. I love the way you connect the importance of community into the scene
DeleteI like how you pointed out what happened when Sethe arrived. What do you think Sethe's coming meant? If she broke the community apart, what does mean for the rest of the book? Could Sethe be the fault to freedom or community?
DeleteI think Morrison uses this scene to kind of emphasize the struggle of one's bondage to their pasts. In the film version, when Baby Suggs first calls the children to her, there is no delay for the kids to come running up to her. However, when she addresses the men and the women, there is a hesitation before stepping out into something lighthearted and different than what they're familiar with. I think it kind of represents how the kids felt more comfortable obeying because they had not grown up in slavery, whereas the adults had. I think this whole scene with Baby Suggs emphasizes the bondage one's past/memories has over them (as we see with Sethe) and the struggle for the adults to let go of their past.
ReplyDeleteYes--I think the motif of trying to take ownership over your body comes across here...the bondage seems to have continued even though slavery has ended. I love how Baby Suggs commands them to love their hands, to love the body parts that were abused and enslaved.
DeleteYes!! I think that the different generations and their behavior show a lot about their experience with slavery. For example, the men also wait to dance until one man steps forth and starts the dancing. Then they encourage one another and go in the same direction following one another. This relates to fear within slavery to be the first to stand out/do something new. It also shows that they followed those around them and engaged in the struggle together. Yet the children are much more chaotic. There is no pattern to the ways they run about. They all begin immediately and don't have to wait for a leader. They lack the caution that their parents have learned from being in slavery.
DeleteI like the ideas of Beloved about space or having a space. Denver has her green closet which is her space to not feel so lonely. Baby Suggs has her clearing which is her space to use her heart to help people heal their own hearts. I find it especially interesting that these spaces are in nature, perhaps to show that they are closer to God or untouched by man.
ReplyDeleteBeyond the fact that the Clearing is a space somewhat cleared of trees and growth, I think the author wanted to show that these services (not quite the right word) allowed individuals to clear their mind. It reminded them to take care of themselves and their families and it cleared up their motives and grounded them. It allowed them to express emotion without shame or individualism. Morrison shows that slavery is a physical state and a mental state. This service is a sort of freeing of the mental slavery that so many are still trapped in.
ReplyDeleteWhat is interesting about this place is that Morrison said that they didn't know who cleared it and nobody owned it. It was land " known only to deer", where they could feel free, in land that is not owned and untouched.
ReplyDeleteWhat is interesting about this place is that Morrison said that they didn't know who cleared it and nobody owned it. It was land " known only to deer", where they could feel free, in land that is not owned and untouched.
DeleteThis is interesting because I'm assuming that many of the people who attended the meetings in the Clearing were those that had experienced what it was like to be "owned" by someone else, including Baby Suggs.
DeleteI like this observation (makes me think of the scene when Paul D briefly lives with the Cherokees). Quick question: Who is this? It's posting as "unknown."
DeleteWhat do you think Morrison wants us to understand better or differently (about slavery? memory? pain? freedom? ownership?)?
ReplyDeleteI think Morrison is trying to give us perspective that through the ownership and through the lack of freedom these are still people in slavery. They still have the ability to laugh and to cry and to feel how ever they want. Even though they seem like they don't have ownership of themselves, they do have this ownership of how they feel and who they feel they are.
I feel like what you said about the slaves somewhat having control over how they feel and who they are. Their owners could not control their thoughts and feelings and who they were. I Think that is possibly something that Morrison is trying to convey with this passage.
DeleteI agree with your answer and I think Morrison brings an important feeling of perspective to slavery. She conveys the idea that although people can be freed from slavery, they are still haunted by the past. Although they can find peace and happiness again, it is a life altering experience that they have to carry forever.
DeleteI also think it was used to portray the pain that is associated with attempting to overcome trauma. They can have this one moment of happiness, but then they have to return to their lives, which are much more grave. This scene is used to juxtapose the rest of the movie and demonstrate how trauma can be ignored, but never forgotten. There is no moving on from what was done to the slaves.
DeleteWhat interests me most about the Clearing is the power that all of them seem to have while they're there. In the movie scene, they were energized by each other and free to express themselves as they pleased, a stark contrast to life outside of the Clearing. It's a sacred space for all of them and that little bit of power that they have does much to improve their spirit. An idea that Morrison might want the reader to take out of the novel is that places have power because of the actions or symbols created there, which have great impacts on the individual.
ReplyDeleteThe power of the clearing is interesting. I wonder if its because of the community there or the close proximity to nature or the freedom of expression. I also wonder if this power travels with each individual for a while after they participate in the Clearing or if it is only present in that space.
DeleteIn the movie scene, what interested me the most was the background music. In the book, what interested me was the control that Baby Suggs had over the situation and how these people who had endured horor can still laugh, dance, and cry. She is preaching to these people to take control of their lives through loving themselves and their traits. This shows that they have had all of their ownership of themselves taken and Baby Suggs wants them to love themselves and the parts of themselves that no one else will love, the parts that the slave owners took. Sethe saw this as a loving place and place she wanted to be.
ReplyDeleteYes! The quote I have on my website (not blog) relates to this as well.
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ReplyDeleteThe clearing in "Beloved" seems to serve as a place where everyone can go to "clear" their head. Baby Suggs invites them to dance, cry, and laugh, allowing them to feel a range of emotions. It is in this space where people can get rid of their pain and embrace their freedom. These people have had lives full of hurt and struggle, but the clearing seems to be a place where they can feel together and free.
ReplyDeleteWhile most of this book has been centered around slavery, entrapment, and the lack of choice, in the clearing, Baby Suggs delivers a celebration of freedom. She brings out their most raw emotions and feelings with crying and laughing, and encourages them to dance. Her undertone is one of love, and it is made clear that the freedom they have is in their understanding of one another and their love for the community. It's an interesting juxtaposition, to have a space in the midst of the feeling of omnipresent standstill in which to celebrate freedom.
ReplyDeleteI think is interesting that you would bring up the love and slavery in this scene. Baby Suggs is so full of love because slavery broke every other part of her except for her heart but Sethe believes she cannot love anything because she could lose it. It is an interesting juxtaposition between the two characters and how they reacted to being slaves.
DeleteI like the way in which every one of the men's dance is unique. Watching the film version, I thought this was cool and it added a lot of texture to the scene.
ReplyDeleteAs for the the second question, I think that the clearing somewhat represents a place for cultural gathering. I think that Morrison names it the "clearing" because on a clearing, all can be seen.
I also notice the unique dancing in this scene, I felt it helped relay the importance of individuality this "ritual" gave the slaves. I think the significance of this scene was to show how everyone was allowed to be themselves in a safe place and how even when they are stripped of everything that makes a human feel unique, they are able to create meaning in there lives through community and isolation of differences.
DeleteMorrison calls it the clearing because it is place where people can "clear" their minds of the world around them and just for that moment have peace and grace of their own. It used to be the place of Baby Suggs, but then was taken away by the white people. This was the end of the true spirit of Baby Suggs. This shift shows that even when the African Americans found their freedom, the white's were still able to take it away. I think that Morrison's point is that freedom can still be taken away from them and no matter what their feelings are, they are at the mercy of the white people.
ReplyDeleteI noticed that baby Suggs is the focus of this scene. She is the person that everyone listens to and she is facilitating all of the action. I wondered while watching the film version, what is the significance of baby Suggs being elevated in this scene is? (She is standing on higher ground as everyone else, standing on a rock.)
ReplyDeleteI feel Baby Suggs is a sign of hope to the slaves. She symbolizes something bigger. She has a powerful, heartfelt, and empowering voice that the slaves can perceive as a 'higher power.' I feel she is a commanding character herself and displays this power in the description of her role in what the "clearing" is. I also feel the slaves look up to her for what she represents, freedom. The fact of her character being so empowering could emphasize the theme of freedom within the book.
DeleteI also find the contrast between Baby Suggs being alone and elevated in the scene while Sethe is linked arm and arm with Beloved and Denver. I think it almost emphasizes Baby Suggs power more that she can be the center and only she is the center of this great powerful scene.
DeleteI think the most interesting aspect of the scene was the amount of light used in the past vs the present of them watching the scene happen, but how it seemed as though Baby Suggs looks straight into Sethe's eyes, and Sethe straight back into hers. I think this speaks largely to the way that Sethe has a deep connection with her roots. The dominating color in both scenes are green, which I think signals growth. But in the past, there was much more light while in the present, there is much more darkness. I think the director chose to do that to symbolize growth of light in the past, but in the present, there is darkness growing around them. In the same way, both of the girls (Beloved and Denver) are grabbing onto Sethe. Almost as if Sethe is surrounded by her past, darkness, and the girls, and there is no escape.
ReplyDeleteThese are wonderful color motifs to trace throughout the entire novel as well (I think your first reading ticket examined some of these).
DeleteI really like how you focused on the light during both these scenes. I agree that it seems like Sethe is surrounded by her past and her darkness, and I think it's really interesting how one of the main ideas Baby Suggs preached about was letting go of it. I wonder if it could be a reason behind her ceasing to preach and her decline into silence and isolation?
DeleteMaybe it was the move of darkness into this space. Because if you relate to the present, there is much more darkness. Do you think this was the reason she left, or because she left?
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ReplyDeleteI think Toni Morrison names that particular place in the forest "The Clearing" because it is a place of freedom. It is a place where the people are not constricted by societal norms or physical barriers. It is simply a place that is clear of judgement and hatred. It was initially 'governed' by Baby Suggs. As the quasi-preacher of the town, people sought out her and the clearing for mental reprieve. Following her demise and death, however, The Clearing remained ungoverned. I think this is used to demonstrate the pent up mental pain and trauma of Morrison's characters in a physical form. This place used to be an escape, now the people of the town no longer have a way in which to release their emotions. This is really shown in Paul D and Sethe as they speak of how getting over trauma is almost as terrible as the traumatic event itself.
ReplyDeleteWhat is interesting about this place is that Morrison said that they didn't know who cleared it and nobody owned it. It was land " known only to deer", where they could feel free, in land that is not owned and untouched
^this was me
DeleteI really like how you pulled out a connection that Morrison makes to deer in the clearing. What do you think deer symbolize in being the only beings that truly know this land?
DeleteI think that the deer represent and sense of freedom. Deer can roam and wander where they please without being questioned by others. They also look so peaceful when they wander, whether in groups or alone. They are also wild and don't belong to anyone, like the Clearing.
DeleteThe qualities of this place are peaceful and loving. It is a safe place for slaves to do and despite their pain they can find happiness. It could maybe be seen as a gateway for slaves. What I mean by this is, once a slave makes it to the "Clearing" maybe themselves are cleaned from their past. Maybe it is a right of passage for them and it is a way for them to move on with thier lives in hopes of finding love and happiness. The "Clearing" could also be a symbol of freedom to the slaves. Here they are free people and reflecting on a quote later in the chapter, "Freedom itself was one thing; claiming ownership of that freed self was another." From this quote a clear conclusion can be made that freedom is found in the "Clearing."
ReplyDeleteWow this is a really cool connection to the quote you referenced at the end. I completely agree, and think that there is something to be said about humankind's tendencies to put ownership on things that should be left unattached and freelanced.
DeleteI also like that quote a lot and feel like it accurately represents the idea here. I think another thing that is interesting is that clearings are generally flat, implying that no one is above anyone else and all there are equal.
DeleteI think that Morrison uses the clearing to represent freedom. People are able to express themselves in the clearing in a manner that they are unable to anywhere else. The clearing allows people to express themselves in the manner that one needs such as Sethe going to pay tribute to Halle.
ReplyDeleteGoing off of this analysis what could be the significance of love within the book? It is interesting because on page 103 love is described as, "Love it hard" emphasizing how people should love, in contradiction on page 108 love is described as, "Don't love nothing." Could these obvious different opinions about love somehow fit together with freedom? If so how?
DeleteIn response to question C, I think Morrison wants us to understand how powerful love is and how it can eclipse pain, or ownership. In Baby Suggs speech, she uses the word love to contrast every mention of pain, and unjust action. I think the power of love that Morrison mentions also ties directly back to the tile of the book,
ReplyDeleteBeloved. Its power comes from how simple and specific it is, and it also shows how love is all encompassing.
What do you think of the fact that despite the original power of the clearing to release them from the pain and judgement of the world was reliant on Baby Suggs?
DeleteI agree, the value and power of love is highlighted through Baby Suggs speech. This mad me think about one of the themes in East of Eden-- does evil or good win? Is Morrison trying to put out a message that good can always overcome bad?
Delete@GabreeceV I also think it's really interesting that The Clearing (which seems so tranquil and welcoming) is the same place that Sethe gets strangled by Beloved's presence from the other side/dimension/shadow world (whatever we wanna call it)...this, again, just goes to show how there is much less of a distinction between good and evil that people would typically allow themselves to perceive.
DeleteThis scene was so powerful because it is the first time you see most of the characters experience joy. It also shows another side of Baby Suggs that the readers haven't seen before. It almost seemed like a release from the harsh reality that Sethe was facing. It is also important that Sethe wanted to return to The Clearing because she has become so shut off from the world because of everything she has had to deal with in her past. Her memory of The Clearing shows that she still has hope and still wants to reach for that happiness that she felt during those services.
ReplyDeleteThe Clearing seems to be a safe place for people who have been hurt from the world. By inviting people to laugh, dance, cry, etc. Suggs is opening up the door for people to freely emote and ideally feel a weight lifted off of their shoulders. "She did not tell them to clean up their lives or go and sin no more. She did not tell them they were the blessed of the earth, its inheriting meek or its glorybound pure. She told them that the only grace they could have was the grace they could imagine. That if they could not see it, they would not have it." I love this part. I think what Baby Suggs is addressing with her audience is hope. She is not preaching or patronizing anybody, but she is inviting each and every individual to latch onto their wishes for the future and realize that it is their to take if they are willing to feel hope's presence...given the fact that her audience is a gathering of slaves, this task is incredibly daunting...no one had had the opportunity to think of freedom as their own, and it seems like Baby Suggs is asking them to find the bravery to imagine it for themeselves.
ReplyDeleteI agree completely, I think this is a really nice analysis of the scene. I also think that she is trying to have them take back their lives and themselves. I really like the part about bravery. I was thinking about it and how it is a place to feel safe in. But then I was wondering why when Sethe went back that she was strangled. Why did she go back to this place and get strangled? I think some of it was because she brought beloved and maybe Beloved is not welcome there for some reason? I was wondering what your thoughts were because I had a similar analysis of the clearing scene.
DeleteI totally agree. It's really brilliant of her to recognize that for those people, they didn't need false promises. They knew, realistically, that their lives would be difficult. And she also knew that it didn't help to speak of amazing things to come in the distant future, because they were suffering now. Rather, she offered them an outlet to expel all their emotions and be together. That's very therapeutic, and was the best way she could help the people in their daily lives.
DeleteSince the clearing is a place of hope and safety, I wondered the same thing. I think it does have to do with Beloved, maybe the fact that while Sethe was trying to let go of the past, Beloved's existence will not let her.
Delete@RyanD - I was wondering the same thing about Sethe being strangled. I think it was Beloved's presence from the other side...I think that maybe the boundary between the two different worlds is getting to be less distinct and may be crossing over more now that Beloved broke the space between the two...as for the meaning behind why it occurred in the Clearing, I think that probably goes to show the instability of freedom/safety in their lives...even the places that are specifically manifested to be peaceful and inclusive can become destructive if you allow yourself too much vulnerability. I think that Morrison added this in to show how temporary all safety/freedom is to slaves (all kinds of slavery)...
DeleteI think in the film, the Clearing is very intentionally shown as not being very clear when Sethe is there. i think this is to show how time can change the world or landscape, but not the people who were there.
ReplyDeleteThe Clearing seems to be a space of freedom, a place of release. The people felt comfortable expressing their emotions freely without the judgement of others. Even though slavery dominated the lives of these people, they are still capable of feeling love, happiness, and pain. They will continue to thrive in this new place they've found, without the constant punishment and threat of ownership, remembering the wrongs they've faced, the happiness they've encountered, and the joy there is to come.
ReplyDeleteI agree that the Clearing is a place of release. These people were united and were able to relate with each other's struggles and conflicts as a result of slavery. They are able to act freely and express their thought. Baby Suggs convinces them to accept themselves.
DeleteI think this scene does a fantastic job of reminding the reader of resilience of passion for the book's characters. Baby Suggs leads her community away from the town and into the woods, and once there they express their emotions rawly in a somewhat primal manner. The Clearing gives the characters an opportunity to feel full of life in a world that has robbed them of much reason to live, and as they grieve that past and reflect on the present Morrison shows the triumph of their passion despite this.
ReplyDeleteWhat do you think is the significance of Sethe being strangled? Why does Morrison choose to have it start as a nice interaction and turn into violence?
ReplyDeleteThis brings me back to Foster's chapter on vampires. I think the hold that Beloved / the past has on Sethe is choking her, draining her, feeding off her. She thinks it's a symbiotic relationship, but it's parasitic.
DeleteI think that the strangling is symbolic of how her baby died. There was some suggestion in the book that Sethe is at least partially to blame for the death of her baby, and I think that Beloved strangling her is not only a way to leave her speechless but also a reminder of what she may have done and is a form of revenge. The dramatic shift in the interaction may be a reminder that Sethe will be unable to live her life unbothered as long as the ghost and memory of Beloved follows her.
DeleteReminds me of Cathy in East of Eden. There is always good on the surface but then the darkness comes out. Morrison could of added this scene to shows the contrast between the good and evil, and how often times there is ambiguity when seeing the true nature of people or situations
DeleteThe strangling definitely gives Sethe a moment to rethink her position and situation. It also allows the reader to see another side of Beloved, possibly foreshadowing future events and information that has not been revealed.
DeleteWhen someone is strangled or can't breathe they often experience symptoms of dizziness and blurred vision. In other words their sense of reality is lost. I think that Sethe in a way is experiencing these symptoms with Beloved. She doesn't realize the hold that Beloved can have over her and her family.
DeleteThis is a really interesting idea. When Sethe goes to The Clearing she makes herself vulnerable by opening herself to her past, so I think Morrison uses the hands in this scene to show how Sethe's past influences her in the present. As she begins to think back on her experiences Sethe feels comforted by the hands rubbing her neck, but the more she reflects on her memories the more violent they become. In this way Morrison illustrates the paradox that interacting with the past can both heal us and harm us and we are almost powerless over it.
DeleteI think this scene started out as pleasant and then quickly escalated into violence because it may be implying the danger that is yet to come in future chapters. The danger may be from Beloved's character and how she might develop into something of an evil nature. The scene also contrasts between good and evil and this may apply to Beloved's character. Beloved seems pleasant in the beginning but Denver's accusation of Beloved strangling Sethe says otherwise.
DeleteI think this is really interesting because initially the "hands"/Beloved/the past was initially stroking her neck in a kind of endearing way, almost like a comfort to Sethe. I think it could be representative of Sethe's relationship with Beloved and her past. With Beloved, it seemed to be a comfort to Sethe to have her around, almost like another child to her, and I think the strangling kind of foreshadows their relationship to come. With Sethe's past, I think it kind of shows how Sethe was very guarded of her past and tried to only think of the better parts of it (i.e, the beautiful trees, rather than the hanging bodies), yet the pain of her past could come up to bring up more pain.
DeleteThe strangling also could show the way that her past nearly killed her, but didn't. Additionally, filling ones lungs with air is often a metaphor for feeling free so maybe her being strangled shows how she this past prevents her from breathing deeply even though she is technically free.
DeleteWhy does Suggs tell the women to weep/cry? Why did Morrison choose for Suggs to have the women cry? What does it reveal about Suggs/Morrison's interpretation of slavery that women "stopped crying"?
ReplyDeleteMaybe she wanted the women to cry in the clearing because they can't cry anywhere else. Just like how the children can't laugh, and the men can't dance in front of the slave owners when they're doing their work. Being in the clearing might've been an opportunity for them to openly express their genuine feelings.
DeleteI think that it is meant to show that being slaves robbed them of all their emotions, not only the happy ones. The previous two actions displayed happiness, but that's not all they lost. They also lost the ability to be sad or feel other emotions.
DeleteThis may symbolize the children the women have lost to slavery. Morrison seems to emphasize the pain that the women feel when losing a child.
DeleteI'm no psychiatrist, but from the little training I've received as a teacher, the kids who aren't crying in the face of a tragedy are the ones you should worry most. I think that the women's lack of crying was representative of emotional detachment; their situation was so vile that their only hope of survival was to check out. I see this echoed in Paul D's discussion of his "red heart" and his "tobacco tin" ("It was some time before he could put Alfred, Georgia, Sixo, schoolteacher, Halle, his brothers, Sethe, Mister, the taste of iron, the sight of butter, the smell of hickory, notebook paper, one by one, into the tobacco tin lodged in his chest. By the time he got to 124 nothing in this world could pry it open" (end of Chapter 10).
DeleteHe tells the women to cry because of all that they have lost and their inability to express it over the years of slavery. Part of breaking free of slavery is claiming independence of your emotions and some parts of independence are not good parts. Baby Suggs is telling the women to own their emotions and allow themselves to feel now that nobody is telling them not to!
DeletePiper: Watching the clearing scene from the movie version was interesting because in a way it seemed hopeful. The slaves past is sad and typically described as dull, this scene however seemed more lively in the film version and rather than being sad Baby Suggs is trying to give the Sweet Home people some hope.
ReplyDeleteI agree with this statement. The Clearing is a place of hope and freedom. The people are able to interact with each other and they are allowed to speak, dance, and think freely. The Clearing is a release from the pain and struggles of slavery.
DeleteThe Clearing is an area of gathering and dancing. Sethe specifically associates the clearing with Baby Suggs. It appears that Baby Suggs is promoting self acceptance when she calls the children, men, and women. Morrison must have named it "the Clearing" because it is a place of clearing the mind and obtaining new thoughts about one's self. The Clearing is a place of freedom. The dancing indicated that the children, women, and men were happy, energetic, and relieved while they were in the Clearing. They were united as a group and they were all able to relate to each other's struggles through slavery.
ReplyDeletea.In this scene, I noticed the phrase,"They knew she was ready when she put her stick down". What do you think the purpose/ symbolism of her stick is? Does it change meaning from this scene to others in the book?
ReplyDeleteb.To me, the shift in 'ownership' of the Clearing suggested that Baby Suggs was no longer able to protect Sethe; the spirit seemed to take control in a way when it deformed a loving gesture (massaging sethe's neck) of Baby Suggs.
c.To me, the purpose of this scene was to focus on not only how little Baby suggs and the people around her really had, but also how much they appreciate what they do have. They were able to take something as common as a field and create a place where everyone could be completeely free and happy, regrdless of who they were or where they came from.
I thought another interesting scene in the book was when Beloved leaves Denver in the dark cold room. What does Denver's reaction say about her mental state? Was Beloved testing Denver to see her reaction? Why would beloved need Denver to be completely loyal to only her?
ReplyDeleteDenver has become entirely dependent on Beloved, relying on her to bring her happiness. When she thinks Beloved has disappeared, she immediately changes her demeanor, opting to give up and let the darkness swallow her. This is important because it shows that Denver's only real connection to the world around her is with someone who does not truly exist. I can see how this would be helpful to Beloved in the future, if her true goal is to tear the family apart one way or another.
DeleteI'm not sure Beloved knows entirely who she is, and I think she's still, in a way, coming to terms with her identity. This also is shows when she tells Paul D to "say her name." The book shows that her mind is still not caught up with her physical age (or how old she looks?). I think she just is young and confused, and like many young kids, she could be feeling jealous of any relationship Denver has with Sethe. It would make sense that she's trying to turn Denver's love for Sethe into a devotion to Beloved, in order to feel less powerless in the family.
DeleteI was just thinking the same thing. I think that this shows the power that Beloved holds over Denver. I also thought the location (being in the shed I think) was interesting as that was where Beloved showed her power over Paul D. I think Denver is obsessive and protective of Beloved almost to the same extent that Beloved is over Sethe. It is a very interesting dynamic of 3 people. I really like the idea of Beloved testing Denver that is really interesting.
DeleteI think this was an important scene because it proves not just that Denver needs Beloved, but that Beloved needs Denver as well. It seems that Beloved needs Denver and Sethe's all consuming attention in order for her to thrive and that is why she needs Denver's loyalty so much. It also shows how much Denver doesn't trust Beloved. After everything that Denver has done for Beloved, Denver assumed that Beloved was just willing to leave her. This proves that Denver knows the reality of Beloved's intentions, but refuses to believe it.
DeleteI feel that Denver is very insecure in herself. She wants someone to depending on and be their for her. I feel her mother isn't that person in her life, so she tries to find it in other places. It makes me question how far will Denver go to fill this void? I feel Denver was being tested to see her loyalty to Beloved. Thinking about this could Denver's attachment to beloved be because Denver wants to be-loved and she never really felt that? I feel Denver is being tested for some future foreshadowing.
DeleteAt one point Morrison says " the present alone interested Denver" and I found this interesting, due to her attachement to Beloved. Beloved brings out memories from the past in both Sethe and Paul D, but does not affect Denver in the same way, as she is more focused on the past. This unique relationship Beloved has with Denver makes me think how she doesn't seem to need anything from her, but Beloved is Denver's whole world at this point.
DeleteWhat do you guys think the significance of the number 6 is in Beloved? While I was reading I noticed that is was repeated over and over again: 46 men, 86 days, Sixo, 46 loops, etc. Maybe it represents the devil (ie 666) but I am not entirely sure.
ReplyDeleteWoah crazy close reading there. I love that, and honestly year I could see that. Do you think it can go further into the "men", "days", "loops". As in is there any relation to the context they are found in?
DeleteI think that is interesting too that it keeps repeating 6... maybe it is hinting at something like the devil but maybe it is also coincidence. I do not feel like it is as obvious of a pattern as 124 but perhaps there is substance to it.
DeleteAfter looking up what the meaning of the number 6 is, it is most commonly referred to as a harmonious number - meaning harmony among people in a family-like way. Alternatively, the number 6 in the Bible represents the number of human imperfections. I think both meanings could be found in Beloved as well.
DeleteWow, that's totally interesting! I had been curious about Sixo but hadn't made the connection to the others. Could it be a reference to the 2 out of 4 children that are now "alive," or (and I could be forgetting this) the number of people at Sweet Home? I would love to look into this more.
DeleteDoing some google research I found that the number 6 has a biblical meaning. It is man's number apparently and it represents not only man but god's creation of man (he created man on the 6th day. 6 also could mean motherhood, healing, sacrifice, protecting, caring, and teaching others. I think the number six could be very symbolic to Beloved.
DeleteWhat is the importance in the distinction between Baby Sugg's "hear me now, love your heart" and her advice to Sethe to "Don't love nothing"?
ReplyDeleteOne of the central conflicts in this novel is how much you should love something when you're in a powerless state, and the thing you love could be ripped away from you at any moment. Later in the book, Sethe and Paul D have an amazing discussion about "thick love" vs. "thin love."
DeleteI find the phrase "don't love nothing" particularly interesting because it could have two meanings based on the double negative. It may mean "don't love anything" but it could also mean "love something" via the double negative. I find this ambiguity interesting.
DeleteI think Baby Suggs is warning Sethe to not give too much of herself to anyone/anything else because it can never be trusted. Love opens you up to vulnerability. Loving her own heart is different, though and Baby Suggs is teaching Sethe to love on herself no matter what and to take care of herself because other people might not take care of her for her.
DeleteI think Baby Suggs was telling Sethe that the only person she can truly trust is herself. Slaves back then couldn't get too attached to material possessions or people, because they could be taken away at the drop of a hat. There is no security for Sethe in this book, and I think Baby Suggs had to teach her how to be self reliant in this way.
DeleteI think they are different representations of the conflict that Baby Suggs feels. In order to be fully free, people need to love themselves and have pride in themselves, but it makes people vulnerable. If you don't love anything, then no one can hurt you. I think Baby Suggs wants people to be free, but she also struggles with the fact that this would leave Sethe open to being hurt.
DeleteI also think it is interesting that it's a double negative. She could also be telling Sethe that what she chooses to love has to be something that matters. Do you think that the double negative is used to display their manner of speech or to create a double meaning?
I think the distinction is very important. In the first quote, Baby Suggs is saying that they should love themselves. All these slaves have been robbed of their own autonomy and the first step in regaining it would be to learn to love yourself despite outside influence. In the second quote, she is telling Sethe not to love anything or anyone else. She is warning her of the pain that is associated with loving and losing. She is essentially saying that loss is inevitable. Therefore, she should not love anything enough for it to hurt when she loses it.
DeleteI think that it represents the thought of guarding your heart because you can't control what happens to you but you can control how much you let something affect you. When you have no freedom or power, it is hard to love something because you have no control over it, and this can lead to heartbreak.
DeleteThis is an interesting juxtaposition. There's a certain vulnerability to loving someone, as you have no choice but to put at least part of your emotional well-being in their hands. But there's a power in it as well, that you can overcome your surroundings and have the strength to choose to love despite it all. It shows how different characters respond to similar ideas.
DeleteThis contrast is intersting. I think it shows how even Baby Suggs has a "tobacco can" inside her heart, a sense of despair that will be with all ex-slaves as their past is so dark. When telling " don't love nothing" to Sethe to me it seems like she is opening up and showing the despair she will always carry with her.
DeleteMorrison uses the clearing to express the struggle for the African American community to take ownership of their new found freedoms. Baby Suggs encourages them to dance and laugh and to express in ways they never have been able to. The community is encouraged through Baby Suggs and comes together to embrace their new freedoms. Morrison uses song and dance as ways of expression for the African American community to express their freedom. In "the Clearing" the former slaves are aloud to be who they want to be for the first time. Through this, it is also a place of growing in community.
ReplyDeleteOn page 144, Denver is calling out to Beloved and Beloved tells her to find her and then Denver thinks that Beloved is gone forever as she is no where to be found but then comes back. What was the point of this happening in the shed? Does it have anything to do with Beloved going to Paul D. in the shed? I also think this shows the power that Beloved holds over Denver.
ReplyDeleteI find it interesting that it takes place in the shed because it is not within the house. It seems all the evil from the ghost, Beloved, happens within the house, but the fact that this incident happened outside of the house could mean that evil is not bound to anything, rather it lives with us and geos where we go.
DeleteI think Beloved's power over Denver is terrifying. It makes me wonder if indifference or hate is more powerful-- Beloved seems to almost be indifferent to Denver.
DeleteThe shed, to me, is kind of the antithesis of the Clearing. If the Clearing is a heavenly space of freedom and enlightenment, then the shed is a hellish space of entrapment and violence. Beloved's power is definitely strongest in the shed; while Baby Suggs rules over the Clearing, Beloved seems to govern the shed.
Deletereplying to Sarah's comment - I think this goes back to the thought of loving something so much that you let it control and effect you. Do you think this is the kind of thing baby Suggs is trying to prevent when she says "Don't love nothing"?
DeleteMs.Leclaire commented on Foster's chapter about vampires... how are Beloveds actions mirroring that of a vampire?
ReplyDeleteI think Beloved is controling the people around her and she feeds off of the attention they give, she feeds off of Sethe almost as a baby in the womb feeds off of her mother. I also think that the strangling scene shows this and how Beloved is controling the people around her. She seems like an almost evil being, someone with more power than anyone else. It is interesting to see this playout as many of the other characters lack power in themselves and their lives, through slavery or the ghost and it is something Beloved never had to deal with as she died before all of it.
DeleteBeloved somewhat hides in the shadows and seems to be followed by a darkness... When Morrison talks about Beloved, it almost seems as if she makes an effort to use words with a darker perhaps more sinister connotation. Also, when Beloved and Denver are in the shed, Beloved lurks in the shadows which seems very much like something a vampire might do.
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DeleteIt seems like she really is trying to take everything from Sethe and Denver. At one point she was saying to Denver that she “has to have her” (as in Sethe). She also demands their attention and is also trying to get Paul D out of the picture.
At the end of Chapter 11, Paul D is compared to Lot's wife: "If he trembled like Lot's wife and felt some womanish need to see the nature of the sin behind him; feel a sympathy, perhaps, for the cursing cursed, or want to hold it in his arms out of respect for the connection between them, he too would be lost." From what I remember (please correct me if I'm wrong), Lot's wife looked back when she wasn't supposed to, and she was punished (maybe turned into a pillar of salt). Why do you think Morrison compares Paul D to Lot's wife in this scene?
ReplyDeleteI think Paul D is the only one looking back at what happened to him and Sethe before they were freed. At a time when most people were looking to the future, Paul D was stuck gazing into the past and because of this, he is the only one cursed with knowing and understanding the truth about Beloved. Like Lot's wife, Paul D continues to look back at the destruction behind him and never embraces his own future.
DeleteWhat do you think is the meaning of Paul D. repeating the words 'red heart'on page 138? Do you think he is referring to himself, Beloved, or something else?
ReplyDeleteI think Paul D was referring to his "tobacco tin" of a heart. Something inside him changed in the presence of Beloved, possibly revealing or unsettling the "read heart" he had locked away for years.
DeleteThis is a really important question. I think there are different ways to interpret this scene, but I see the "red heart" as the vulnerable, painful part of Paul D's past that he has carefully sealed up in his "tobacco tin" to protect himself. I read this as a scene in which Beloved is violating him...if Beloved represents the past, then his past of being sexually violated has caught up with him here.
DeleteThere is definitely significance of Paul D repeating 'red heart' because he starts out talking to himself and then he shouts the words "so loud it woke up Denver." I think this may indicate that something is unsettling Paul D (maybe something that happened in the past) and he does not seem to know how to handle the pain he bottles up inside.
DeleteBeloved's character often acts like a baby but is often also portrayed in very adult ways. The author seems to have left out teenage characteristics/actions when it comes to the character of Beloved? Is there a significance to this? Or do you see any teenage characteristics to Beloved?
ReplyDeleteI think the absence of teenage characteristics in Beloved is key because she never had a coming of age or a period of growth. To the other characters, Beloved has only ever existed as a baby or an adult, and when she is in a ghost state she exists as anger and resentment. Beloved could never be a teenager because she has never been able to grow out of her anger.
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ReplyDeleteThat goes back to Mrs. Leclaire's idea of Foster's vampires. Beloved, slowly but surely, is pulling the life out of 124 and all its inhabitants.
DeleteWater appears to be a major symbol in Morrison's Beloved. For example, Beloved emerged from the water when she came to reality. What do you think water represents?
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ReplyDeleteWater typically symbolizes rebirth espscially in a biblical sense. Not only rebirth but also purity. Maybe Denver represents the purity and Beloved is the antithesis of that, being like an unatural rebirth. The water could also connect the two.
DeleteThe last part of the assigned reading really confused me. On page 146, I was really wondering what Beloved meant when she pointed to the sunlight cracks and said "I'm like this." I see her as a very dark character, so I understand why she associates herself with a dark room, but I'm wondering what the slits of light could mean...maybe she has goodness within? Or she is able to see both good and bad? A mostly dark person with bits of light shining through...also was interesting that Denver says, "I don't see nothing," kinda like how Adam couldn't see the evil in Cathy.
ReplyDeleteI found the passages about Paul D. and his house fits and how it generally had to do with the women in the house but now he believes it is not, he states he loves Sethe more and more every day (136). It is almost as if he just does not feel right being in the family anymore. The movement of himself throughout the chapter is interesting as well as the start of ch 11 where he says that "she moved him". I was wondering what you all thought of Paul in this scene.
ReplyDeleteHave you seen any development or growth in Denver's character since we met her? Or the opposite?
ReplyDeleteWhat do you think the importance of the connections to water is throughout the book? (I.e. "Beloved dropped the folds of her skirt... the hem darkened with water", Denver being born near water, Beloved emerging from it, etc.)
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